LS Horsemanship

LS Horsemanship Equine behavioural consultant. Kind, horse-centred training and support.

When training issues aren't just training issues 🐓I would be as bold to say that training issues aren’t just training is...
19/06/2026

When training issues aren't just training issues 🐓

I would be as bold to say that training issues aren’t just training issues 99% of the time.

It is common when I meet new clients that they have had various professionals out, perhaps the vet, a bodyworker, saddle fitter, usually a trainer or two. They often feel like they’ve tried everything simply because we are made to feel like that’s all there is available. We choose a yard to go to and the horse just has to live there and cope with the rules, we choose a bodyworker and trust that if they say our horses are fine then they are and we choose a trainer who says they’re kind, ethical and a behavioural expert so we trust that they are.

What I often come to find is a horse who’s living situation is causing them to be chronically stressed, a horse with a compromised body very much not helped by living in chronic stress and a horse who has been taken into a training space and had pressure applied in various ways trying to make them comply. We could obviously go into so much more depth here but hopefully you get the idea of what I’m saying. None of this is helping the horse and until we address that chronic stress and help their body there are going to be behavioural or training ā€œissuesā€.

This is really hard to recognise as so many horses are living in chronic high-stress, they must be fine if they all live like this, right? Many horses shut down to cope so that’s why we see that the training ā€œworksā€, you’ve just got to keep applying enough pressure until the horse gives in. We’re then told that the horse is now happy and relaxed in their work, but actually they’ve just learned that its easier to comply than be hassled and that they have no choice regardless of how they feel about it.

There are two parts I focus on that make the make the biggest difference to a horse’s behaviour and wellbeing quickly, neither of them are training:

🐓 Getting their living environment and management the absolute best we can to ensure their needs are met, this is way more complex than just turned out or stabled. We need to ensure they have appropriate company, appropriate forage (long stem fibre every single day, yes even if they’re fat), comfortable places to lie down, freedom to move and feeling safe in their living environment.

🐓 Stop doing the things that are causing them high-stress. When having behavioural issues we’re often putting the horse into high-stress situations again and again in a bid to try and solve the issue, when actually all we’re doing is compounding those negative associations. We need to stop trying to modify the behaviour and start to help the horse feel safe again. This usually looks like doing enrichment activities until the horse is feeling better and is happy to engage with us. Then we can start training again in a more positive way.

Of course there are lots of other considerations here, but those are the two biggest parts to having a horse feel better significantly.

When we’re having training issues we need to think, are we looking at the whole horse and their life or are we just taking the horse into a training space and trying to modify behaviour with no thought for anything else?

We want quick fixes, we want to ride the horse now. Unfortunately when we bought a horse we bought a sentient being with their own physical body, thoughts, feelings and emotions, yet we have been conditioned to think we are entitled to use them however we want. There is constant justification and pressure from the people around us that the horse is ā€œfineā€ and we just need to crack on. But if we truly put our horse’s needs first we aren’t always going to be able to do what we want with them and we need to trust our gut and seek out people who can actually help us and our horses.

We can’t just want to feel good about it and speak in platitudes, we have to actually show up for our horses and do what needs to be done for their welfare and quality of life, and sometimes that is hard and sometimes that is uncomfortable. Our horses cannot advocate for themselves, we’re all they’ve got.🐓

The importance of gut health 🐓Gut health in horses is often not really talked about beyond ulcers or no ulcers and maybe...
13/06/2026

The importance of gut health 🐓

Gut health in horses is often not really talked about beyond ulcers or no ulcers and maybe a worm count. There is so much more to gut health than this and I suspect a huge percentage of the horses I see to have issues.

Anyone who deals with their own gut issues will know how much it can affect your mood and quality of life, but, as with most things with horses, horses are often expected to just get on with it and perform.

One of the biggest red flags for me that a horse is definitely dealing with gut issues is unhealthy droppings. Wet, sloppy, luminous green, f***l water or smelling putrid. These are signs of an upset gut yet they are normalised as just something that happens when you keep your horse out on grass. If your horse's droppings change or are constantly like this then we need to make some changes to support their gut health.

Of course a horse can have droppings that look healthy and still be dealing with gut issues. Due to the way many horses are managed on yards it is no wonder so many horses struggle with this. Sudden changes in grazing/forage/diet, yard moves, chemicals sprayed on fields, chemicals sprayed on feeds, inappropriate ingredients in feeds, inappropriate forage, extremely restrictive weight loss diets, high stress environments, lack of movement, pain/discomfort in the body, mares with unhealthy microbiomes having foals, the list could go on.

I do use certain gut supplements with my own horses generally of a herbal variety and have found them to anecdotally improve symptoms/behaviour. I am a big fan of feeding appropriate herbs throughout the year to increase diversity in the diet and hopefully improve the microbiome. But you are trying to stop the boat from sinking with a bucket if you aren’t addressing your horse’s management alongside this. The most important part of your horse’s diet is his forage. You can feed all the gut supplements in the world and they are not going to outrun inappropriate management, inappropriate forage and chronic high-stress.

Again anecdotally, through taking steps to improve gut health I have seen not only behavioural changes but reduced symptoms of sweet itch, mud fever, seasonal allergies, general itchiness, recurrent unexplained colics, poor hoof quality, grass sensitivity and I’m sure more I can’t think of off the top of my head.

Dealing with my own gut issues has had me deep diving into research about human gut health and the microbiome and realising how little we still know even in humans, so the idea we know all there is to know about horses is ludicrous. I don’t think we’ve even scratched the surface.

I don’t have a huge amount of skin in the game here but I am intrigued by what I have seen of Dr Christina Fritz’s work and much of it fits with what I know about the microbiome.

I think there are many, many horses dealing with gut health issues that could be improved with some simple changes. Reducing our horse’s chronic stress-load, supplying appropriate forage 24/7, making sure they have friends, the freedom to move and make choices and an environment to live in that they feel safe in is a great place to start. Of course you should speak to your vet if you have concerns. 🐓

09/06/2026

I wanted to share this amazing little setup one of my clients has made for their lami-prone pony.

This pony spent a lot of time stabled last summer as she was struggling with laminitis flare-ups with access to any grazing. I saw the environment available and suggested creating an outdoor ā€œbox-restā€ area for her.

This year she is able to be out and about with her friends, she can choose in or out, she gets different foraging options hidden around in the trees and she gets a lot more movement in. She has so much more agency over her life and is much happier for it. ā¤ļø

It shouldn’t be a choice between being isolated to a stable or out on inappropriate grazing. We can quite easily make enriched living environments for our grass-sensitive horses if we think outside the box a bit. ā¤ļø

Forage and behaviour 🐓I know I talk about management a lot but I cannot understate how important appropriate forage is f...
05/06/2026

Forage and behaviour 🐓

I know I talk about management a lot but I cannot understate how important appropriate forage is for your horse’s wellbeing.

Some of the biggest, positive behavioural changes I see are simply from providing the horse with more appropriate forage. By appropriate forage I usually mean long stem fibre like hay, or, if you’re lucky enough and have a horse who isn’t grass sensitive, long, mature grass. My first management change for most horses is finding a way to provide them with forage that doesn't run out.

Last summer so many of my clients were battling with parched fields with very little grass, this summer many people are battling with short grass that is constantly flushing with the wet/sunny weather, this is not good for any horse’s gut regardless of their weight. When grass is very short there is very little gut fill which means, regardless of how many calories are being consumed, horses are not getting enough fibre to keep their guts healthy. We need to supplement with hay to keep our horses healthy and happy when this is the only grazing we have access to. If your horse has sloppy, green droppings then his gut health is suffering.

I understand that many yards do not allow you to put hay out in the field but we can always come up with a solution, some simple ones are:

🐓 Bring your horse in through the day/twice a day to eat hay
🐓 Rest parts of your field so it can grow longer and you can strip graze it
🐓 Take your horse out hand grazing on longer grass
🐓 Supplement with fibre blocks/hay replacer type feeds

I know that we think out 24/7 in summer is best, but if my only choices were out with no long stem fibre or part-stabled with hay then I would choose the latter for my horse’s overall wellbeing.

Some signs that your horse may be feeling hungry are:
🐓 Being grumpy towards other horses/resource guarding
🐓 Chewing wood
🐓 Waiting at the gate
🐓 Frantically pulling to grass/food when leading
🐓 Being desperate to come in from the field
🐓 Pushy behaviour
🐓 Generally tense/spooky behaviour

You’d be surprised how many spooky/stressy/pushy horses settle down once they are provided with enough fibre consistently. Even if your horse is being given hay daily, if he finishes it all in a a few hours, he then has another 20hrs of the day he knows he’s going without, this creates stress around the food and they will likely gorge it even faster.

I know lots of horses being diagnosed with ulcers at the moment but we have absolutely got to get the management right if we want to get rid of them successfully, otherwise we find ourselves stuck in a loop.

We need to provide enough long stem fibre, even for our overweight horses. I am a huge advocate for trickle feeding to increase the time it takes to eat the same amount of forage and also increasing the amount of steps your horse is doing daily. Putting hay/water at opposite ends of the field, creating a track system, hand walking your horse etc. 🐓

Please have a look at my friend Kelly's resources Horse Weighbridge North East if you're struggling with your horse's weight and diet. We will be doing another live together soon šŸ˜Ž

ā€œHand feeding teaches horses to biteā€ 🐓This is a myth perpetuated by many that scares people away from exploring more et...
03/06/2026

ā€œHand feeding teaches horses to biteā€ 🐓

This is a myth perpetuated by many that scares people away from exploring more ethical training methods. The only way hand feeding could teach a horse to bite is if we waited for the horse to bite us, then marked the behaviour and rewarded them for it.

If a horse gets nippy or pushy around food, then this is a symptom of a wider problem. The food itself didn't cause this problem, it was already present and the food just highlighted it. Horses who are stressed are quicker to become frustrated and perhaps nip at us. Stress could be from poor training, the environment, their living situation, pain or discomfort in the body, maybe hunger or being restricted from food, and so on and so on. Usually several of the above.

There is also a huge difference between horses being a bit nippy and horses lunging at you aggressively to bite. The latter are rare and this is a serious behavioural problem which needs to be addressed carefully and probably involves serious underlying pain, trauma or neurological issues. I have never ever seen nipping from frustration turn into horses aggressively attacking humans. And it's ridiculous to scare people out of doing something nice with their horse by pretending it's a slippery slope to extremely dangerous behaviour.

One of the biggest frustrations for any of us who advocate for training with food is when we're told, "I can't use food it will make my horse too pushyā€ or ā€œit doesn't workā€, when actually this is a skill issue, alongside the outside stress levels we already mentioned. If you're using high value treats and your horse is frustrated and confused about how to get them, then yes, they're highly likely to get pushy and nippy. That is normal frustration behaviour which has been caused by sloppy training, not by the presence of the food. However, anyone can learn to use food safely with their horse and actually train their horse to be calm around food.

With many horses this starts with delivering food rewards into a bucket and not from the hand. This is so we don't accidentally create the idea that the human is a walking enrichment puzzle to shake the food out of, which so often starts happening when we're trying to learn by ourselves. 🄲

Horses are extremely intelligent, many people are shocked at how easy it is to train their horse once we are meeting their needs and they aren't stressed about training.

Every horse is different, and this is why we need to learn about training with food as a skillset just like anything else. You wouldn't expect to canter and jump on your first ever riding lesson, yet there's this strange attitude towards training with food in that you can do it well and judge its usefulness with no previous experience or skill set. And I'm saying this as someone who used to heavily eye roll and judge people who trained with food.

In conclusion, if a horse is nippy around food, that is information that we have work to do around managing their stress levels and improving our own skillset to help our horse’s feel calm and safe around food. It is extremely easy to wind a horse up with food, there is so much to learn to do it well. It can be daunting as it feels so different from conventional training.

Please don't be put off from trying to train this way if those are you concerns. Drop me a message if you’d like some help. 😊

Pictured is me somehow not being eaten alive while hand feeding both of my horses and hosing them off at liberty on a very hot day last year. šŸ˜…šŸ„µ They learned to park at their respective cones and wait patiently. ā¤

01/06/2026

I’m sticking to my word of posting more video footage of quiet, ethical training. It can be a really vulnerable thing for someone to have footage of them training shared publicly so I want to thank my clients for allowing me to do so.

This is lovely Monty who came to her owner very frightened and uncatchable. She arrived with a headcollar on which had snapped across the noseband, she managed to get her into a field safe headcollar which stayed on for several months as she was unable to take it off or catch her to put it back on.

It would take anywhere from 15 - 30 minutes to catch Monty as she had to distract her with treats while she grabbed the cheek strap of the headcollar, she could not grab the noseband or Monty would panic.

Monty’s owner has spent a lot of time helping Monty feel better but was still only able to get the headcollar on by distracting and bribing her nose in with high-value treats.

This video shows very small snippets of a larger, more nuanced process but Monty now happily comes over to have her headcollar put on. We are using low value food (not treats) and Monty has free access to hay in her stable meaning if she didn’t want to engage she could just go and get food from elsewhere.

It is really important when horses are frightened to give them the choice to opt out, this is what builds confidence quickly because they feel safe. Horses who are frightened have often felt trapped or pressured before which is why they have such big reactions to things. By training like this Monty learned she could predict what was going to happen, knew that we wouldn’t add any pressure if she wasn’t sure and that really nice things happened when the headcollar was present.

This is so different to bribing or distracting a horse with treats while you do something they don’t like, it is also very different to applying pressure to the horse until they do the right thing to find relief. It’s that element of choice that really helps them feel better.

If you want to learn how to train like this with your horse drop me a message 🐓

ā€œDon’t worry he won’t do anythingā€ 🐓Something I’ve been pondering this week is how wanting to be kinder to horses is oft...
29/05/2026

ā€œDon’t worry he won’t do anythingā€ 🐓

Something I’ve been pondering this week is how wanting to be kinder to horses is often perceived to come from fear or nervousness. That the only reason you might back off when a horse shows some anxiety is that you’re worried the horse is going to do something to hurt you.

This comes from the widely held, but misguided, belief that horses are trying to dominate and take charge of us. That we must push through any effort they make to express their discomfort otherwise we will ruin the horse and teach them they can intimidate us or ā€œget out of workā€.

I go out to see a lot of horses who are showing behaviours that are perceived as aggression, pinning ears, biting, threatening to kick etc. Every single person has been told they must never back off as the horse is trying to dominate them, the horse knows they are ā€œtoo softā€ and the horse is taking advantage of this. This just is not the case. Horses are not aggressive animals, they are gentle and very easy to train when they feel safe and have their needs met. Behaviour is communication.

When a horse resorts to these loud behaviours they are shouting, usually because their quieter communication hasn’t been listened to. The majority of horses displaying ā€œaggressiveā€ behaviours are in pain, even if they aren’t experiencing physical pain they are definitely not okay mentally and ignoring their communication, or worse punishing it, will make life worse for them. Often punishment works in that it gets the horse to shut down and stop communicating their discomfort, other times it makes the behaviour escalate into something more dangerous.

If we learn to listen to their quiet communication and respond accordingly, they will no longer need to shout at us. This can take a long time when a horse has been ignored or punished for it their whole life and feels the need to defend themselves, especially when pain is involved.

When I meet a new horse I will perhaps greet them then gently reach my hand out to see how they feel about me touching them. Sometimes this is met with a horse looking away from me and pinning their ears, so I will immediately drop my hand and back off to let the horse know I’m listening to them. This is how you start to build trust with a horse. But often this is met with the phrase ā€œdon’t worry he won’t do anythingā€, which when we think about it really means ā€œdon’t worry you can continue to do whatever you want to him, even though you’re doing something he is communicating he really doesn’t like, because he is too gentle to actually hurt youā€.

I do not back off when horses communicate discomfort to me because I am scared they will escalate and hurt me, I back off because it is the respectful thing to do and I want to start creating a rapport with that horse and let them know I will listen and they are safe with me. They don’t need to shout. Not being injured by horses is just a nice extra bonus.

This is not a judgement of people who have been taught this, it is a reflection of how horses are viewed industry wide. As long as the horse will tolerate something then it is fine to do it. We must not let the horse know they can have any control over what happens to them or else they'll become really dangerous. šŸ™„

Back in the days when I used to get on strange horses for people I remember hopping onto a horse who was extremely tense. He jogged away from the mounting block and I spent the next 20 minutes trying to get him to walk on a loose rein and allow me to relax and wrap my legs around him. After a while the owner said to me ā€œyou can trot him you know don’t worry he won’t do anythingā€, and I realised that she thought I wasn’t trotting him because I was nervous he would explode. I had to explain that trotting him was inappropriate because he couldn’t even relax in the walk and it wouldn’t do him any good. We are always rushing and expecting our horses to just put up with things and improve when they are clearly struggling (turned out this horse had raging stomach ulcers and kissing spine but that’s another story).

I really want horses to be listened to before they have to shout and become labelled aggressive and dangerous. I encourage you to take some time with your horse and observe how they really feel about what you’re asking. Are you just going through the motions and carrying on because you know your horse won’t protest too much? Do you notice when your horse doesn’t want your touch? What happens if you pause and listen? 🐓

I am currently writing my next webinar "How to build a good relationship with your horse" which will cover topics like this one, I will add the link to express interest in the comments 😊

Successful training 🐓We all want to have good training sessions with our horses, we want to end every session feeling li...
27/05/2026

Successful training 🐓

We all want to have good training sessions with our horses, we want to end every session feeling like we have achieved and progressed.

For me success used to look like linear progress, making a plan of what I wanted to achieve in that session then doing what I needed to do to make that happen, very often at the detriment of the horse. My only metric of success was whether I could get the horse to ā€œdo the thingā€ or not.

Could I get the horse over the scary fillers?
Could I get the horse to hack out round the block alone?
Could I get the horse to stand at the mounting block?
Could I get the horse to load onto the trailer?

If I couldn’t complete what I set out to do in that session I would feel like I failed, I was often applying heavy pressure to horses and becoming frustrated if they wouldn’t ā€œdo the thingā€. I had been taught if I quit I would be ruining the horse.

Often even if the session was deemed ā€œsuccessfulā€, I would feel an itch of conflict in the back of my mind over my treatment of the horse, we are all conditioned its okay and normal to ā€œget into itā€ with horses. A flick with the stick, a kick in the ribs, a yank on the rope, refusing to let them turn away. I knew I was causing horses high-stress at times, but I believed that was a necessary evil to train horses.

As time went on and I learned more about behaviour, I would often feel apologetic towards horses after a training session, the conflict inside of me became bigger. One lightbulb moment for me came when I was trying to repeat a jumping exercise with my horse to make him more careful, he found it too difficult and was repeatedly hitting the fence and not improving. He eventually fell to his knees and I remember turning to my friend and saying I wasn’t going to jump him anymore as it just wasn’t for him. I felt horribly guilty that I had frightened and hurt my horse. That was the start of very slow spiral down this road for me.

I no longer judge the success of a training session on obedience at all. Success to me is the horse having a positive experience where they feel safe and listened to, definitely not one where the horse has been pushed into high-stress. Progress often isn’t linear and that is absolutely fine. When you train with this mindset every single training session can be a success, we can simply choose to make it so by making good choices for that horse on that day. If they can’t get to the same point as they did in the last session, that is absolutely fine.

The pay-off in the relationship when we train with the horse’s emotional experience in mind is huge. What is so amazing about training gently and allowing horses more agency is that they become so much easier train, as long as the ask is appropriate, and also much safer to be around. Horses who are listened to don’t need to shout loudly.

I’ll give you some examples of successful training sessions I’ve had over the last few weeks:
🐓 A very nervous horse learning to put their own head into the headcollar.
🐓 A horse who has issues around the mounting block standing calmly while someone walks up onto the first step and back down.
🐓 A horse confidently walking 100yds out of the front gate and calmly eating food out of a bucket away from their friends.
🐓 An anxious horse being able to stand calmly while someone touches their left hind leg.
🐓 A previously uncatchable horse coming to call.
🐓 A horse who would go to the back of the box to avoid being bridled who now comes to engage with it at the stable door.
🐓 A nervous young horse being able to have their front hooves trimmed by the farrier for the first time after weeks of preparation.
🐓 A horse who has had traumatic loading experiences being able to confidently eat a food scatter off the ramp.
🐓 A horse who used to find being wormed really distressing voluntarily putting a syringe in his mouth.
🐓 A horse who struggles with having their back legs handled being able to be poulticed daily for an abscess.

All of these sessions involved giving the horse the agency to say ā€œno thank you I’m not comfortableā€, most of these sessions the horse was loose and able to completely leave the situation if they chose to.

A comment I get a lot from clients is their yard friends just think they’re ā€œdoing nothingā€ when they train their horse. We are so used to quick fixes and pushing horses through. Truly ethical, gentle training that is ā€œfor the horseā€ prioritises the horse’s emotional experience. If we are seeing high-stress such as bucking, rearing, bolting, pulling back, kicking etc we have already failed them and we need to back off and rethink. Many issues come from expecting way too much too soon and also failing to read the behaviour.

I never thought I’d get such a buzz from watching a pony willingly put their nose into a headcollar or watching them willingly offer their hoof, but I genuinely do, honestly more so than I ever did from kicking horses over jumps or dragging them onto horseboxes.

Once you really learn to read behaviour and you can see all of the subtle communication, this kind of training becomes really exciting.

I’d love to hear about any of your little training successes recently. Clients also welcome to answer even though I already know 😊🐓

We cannot assess a horse’s wellbeing based on their obedience 🐓Horses are constantly judged based purely on their obedie...
25/05/2026

We cannot assess a horse’s wellbeing based on their obedience 🐓

Horses are constantly judged based purely on their obedience.

A ā€œgoodā€ horse is seen as one who complies with our demands without question, a ā€œproblemā€ horse is seen as one who doesn’t. And this may be as far as people want to take their thought process if all they care about is using a horse to do what they want to do.

However those of us who care about our horse’s life experiences and want to be more ethical need to think more deeply.

It is great that pain is talked about so much more now as a potential reason for ā€œbadā€ behaviour, we have learned that a lack of obedience is often a sign of pain. The issue with this is, in the absence of obvious lameness, we are often taking a horse’s obedience as proof there is no pain present, regardless of other stress/discomfort behavioural indicators. As long as the horse is ā€œdoing the thingā€ then we accept this as good enough.

When you are trying to advocate for your horse with professionals this can be a really tricky one to navigate as this is the industry norm. I have had to advocate hard for client’s horses with some vets when they have suggested the horse is just ā€œtaking the mickā€ and we need to be firmer. It is so normalised that we should have to battle through with horses.

Once we start really learning to observe behaviour we can see through the cracks. I watch so many ā€œproblemā€ horse videos showing the horse being put under pressure and allegedly ā€œfixedā€. What we are actually seeing is a horse going from not being obedient to being obedient. But they are still showing clear indicators of tension and discomfort, such as facial expressions, calming signals and often uncomfortable movement that perhaps doesn’t come under the scope of obvious lameness. But the horse is declared fixed and happy based purely on the evidence that they are now obedient and doing what the human wants without protest.

When we hear people talking about their horse improving, often the only metric that has improved is their obedience. This is a good thing for the human but not necessarily a good thing for the horse. I’ll give you a few real life examples I have seen:

🐓 Horse has undiagnosed hock arthritis, is very stuffy under saddle and the owner struggles to get them into canter. Trainer gets on the horse and flicks the horse with a whip if they don’t respond to the leg aid. The horse doesn’t like being flicked with the whip so they learn to respond to the leg aid to avoid it. Horse now goes into canter easily. Horse is still in pain with hock arthritis, but they are obedient now so nobody thinks there is an issue.

🐓 Horse has an undetected sore back from a badly fitting saddle. The horse now bites and threatens to kick when the saddle is presented. The saddler says the saddle is fine so the owner gets a trainer in. The trainer approaches with the saddle, as soon as the horse pins their ears the trainer slams the rope/clip up repeatedly into the horse's face chasing them backwards. They do this repeatedly until the horse stops pinning their ears while the saddle goes on. Horse is still in pain and the saddle still doesn’t fit, but they are obedient now so nobody thinks there is an issue.

🐓 Horse has undiagnosed kissing spine and stomach ulcers. The horse is very tense at the mounting block and the owner has had a nasty fall. A bodyworker clears the horse of pain. The owner hires a trainer who tells them the horse just needs to build confidence. The trainer teaches the horse that if they move away from the mounting block they will be tapped with a stick, the horse doesn’t like being tapped with a stick so they eventually learn the only place it will stop is by the mounting block. Rider can now mount without the horse moving. The horse still has pain from kissing spine and stomach ulcers, but they are obedient now so nobody thinks there is an issue.

These ā€œsuccessā€ stories are flooding our social media feeds all of the time, we have to move away from viewing obedience as the only goal if we want to be ethical and we have to be careful of the narratives we create for our horses. An obedient horse does not mean a happy horse. 🐓

I go in depth into case studies about this in my "Is it pain or just behavioural?" webinar which I'll link in the comments.

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